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 Crew Members Inkerman/Cerisoles - WW1 - Navy AND Somme?

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Jean Pendziwol
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Crew Members Inkerman/Cerisoles - WW1 - Navy AND Somme? Empty
MessageSujet: Crew Members Inkerman/Cerisoles - WW1 - Navy AND Somme?   Crew Members Inkerman/Cerisoles - WW1 - Navy AND Somme? EmptyDim 17 Jan 2021, 16:08

I am researching the history of the sinking of the Inkerman and Cerisoles in Lake Superior in November of 1918. The ships were part of a convoy crossing the lake at the end of the season after being launched in Fort William. They were accompanied by the Sebastopol (which survived) under the leadership of Captain Le Clerc. They were two of 12 trawlers/minesweepers commissioned by France and constructed by Can Car in Fort William.

I am looking for more information about the crew, most of whom were from Bretagne, and young. Local newspapers indicate that several had also fought in the Somme and I'm wondering how this is possible?

This sinking is one of the great mysteries of Lake Superior because there has been no clues about what happened, where they sank, etc. The ships have never been found.

Any information would be appreciated!
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MessageSujet: Re: Crew Members Inkerman/Cerisoles - WW1 - Navy AND Somme?   Crew Members Inkerman/Cerisoles - WW1 - Navy AND Somme? EmptyDim 17 Jan 2021, 17:28

Bonjour,

Voici un lien vers le site forum 14-18 qui a traité de ce naufrage des patrouilleurs Inkermaan et Cersoles sur le Lac Supérieur.

https://forum.pages14-18.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=43649&hilit=cerisole

Cordialement
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Jean Pendziwol
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MessageSujet: Crew Members Inkerman/Cerisoles - WW1 - Navy AND Somme?   Crew Members Inkerman/Cerisoles - WW1 - Navy AND Somme? EmptyLun 18 Jan 2021, 00:27

Thank you Alain. I have a lot of this information (and more if anyone is interested).

I live in the city where the minesweepers were built and have spent a lot of time on Lake Superior where the ships sank. I want to know more about the crew, and in particular, how they could have served in the Somme before being deployed to Canada to transport the ships. Was it usual for members of the French Navy to serve in ground troops?

It is also interesting to note that two bodies were found on an island close to Michipicoten Island in 1934 with "remnants of French naval uniforms and ID tags around their necks." This trail then goes cold - I can't figure out what happened to the ID tags (the bodies were buried by fisherman... the tags turned over to the authorities.)

Any information about the crew would be interesting - who were they? where did they come from? did they leave family behind?
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MessageSujet: Re: Crew Members Inkerman/Cerisoles - WW1 - Navy AND Somme?   Crew Members Inkerman/Cerisoles - WW1 - Navy AND Somme? EmptyLun 18 Jan 2021, 09:10

Je n'ai pas d'autres informations que celles données par le site dont je vous ai donné le lien.
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MessageSujet: Re: Crew Members Inkerman/Cerisoles - WW1 - Navy AND Somme?   Crew Members Inkerman/Cerisoles - WW1 - Navy AND Somme? EmptyLun 18 Jan 2021, 09:48

Jean Pendziwol a écrit:
Any information about the crew would be interesting - who were they? where did they come from? did they leave family behind?

Hi,

Much information can be found on the internet, starting from the names in the page given by Niala.
A demo :


Place of birth

e.g. Berthelé Paul, born in Ouessant (Finistère)
Ouessant : "commune" (city, village. Here : Ushant island)
Finistère : "département". See this map : https://www.cartes-2-france.com/carte-departements-france.php

military career
The military career of every boy of this period is shown in a form, the "Fiche matricule", bound into a "Registre matricule"
A (large) exception : for those who are "Inscrits maritimes" (registered seamen, i.e. fishermen, Merchand Service seamen), the fiche is almost void and the maritime archives cannot (yet) be found in the internet.

Method :
First, you have to find the "numéro matricule" (registration number) of the boy in an alphabetic table. There is one or several tables in each départment for each "classe".
The "classe" year is the year of birth +20

For Paul Berthelé : 1898 + 20 = 1918
Let's find the number.
Google "Archives Finistère"
In the home page of the Archives, click "Registres militaires" then "Accès aux documents numérisés"
Left column "Affiner votre recherche" "Dates" 1918 to 1919
"Typologie" : table
Start with the first one (Brest, closest bureau to Ushant)
Click "fichiers liés", click the image, click "HD" at the bottom for a better definition
Page 4 : Berthelé Paul, matricule 2014, volume 5
Back to the search page, delete the "table" filter, find the table Brest - 2001 to 2500
Image 14 : here he is.
Bad luck, his profession is "marin" and he is "inscrit maritime". But you get more info about his family.
You could search his family, or his death registration, but the Finistère archives are poorly digitalized at this stage.

Other resources
The "Mémoire des hommes" site, with all the 1914-1918 "morts pour la France" (dead for France)
Search "Mémoire des hommes", on the home page "Première guerre mondiale" then "Morts pour la France" "Faire une recherche"
Search name "Berthelé". He is the third one in the list. On the image : "disparu en mer" "vapeur Inkerman" (lost at sea, steamer Inkerman)

Mémorial national des marins
https://memorial-national-des-marins.fr/fiches-marins
A non-exhaustive site
"Recherche des fiches des marins". No, Paul Berthelé is not registered in this site.

General comment
From the list, a fair number of the sailors were born in 1898, i.e. belonged to the 1918 class, or later.
This class was drafted in 1917 : https://www.geneanet.org/blog/post/2017/03/2-mars-1917-lincorporation-de-classe-1918-demandee-avril-1917
The (great) battle of the Somme of 1916 was over for a while.

Niala, who knows much about this period, will correct me if necessary  Crew Members Inkerman/Cerisoles - WW1 - Navy AND Somme? Ala

Enjoy  study  Wink
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MessageSujet: Re: Crew Members Inkerman/Cerisoles - WW1 - Navy AND Somme?   Crew Members Inkerman/Cerisoles - WW1 - Navy AND Somme? EmptyLun 18 Jan 2021, 15:18

Hi

Thank you!! This will keep me busy for a few days looking up crew members. Perhaps it was some of the senior crew who were at the Somme? But then, if they had served in the Navy for several years, why?

I am curious about the "inscrits maritime" - or fishermen, Merchand service seamen. Do you know if there's more general information about these recruits somewhere?

I'm also wondering about the wireless operators as this technology was fairly new. There were radio operators on the ships, but the research I've done suggests they may not have been well trained and/or there were language issues. I have found and used the Memoire des hommes site, and I do know who were the radio operators on the ships from crew lists.

Thank you for all your help. I'll keep digging through these sources to see what I can find.

Jean E
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MessageSujet: Re: Crew Members Inkerman/Cerisoles - WW1 - Navy AND Somme?   Crew Members Inkerman/Cerisoles - WW1 - Navy AND Somme? EmptyLun 18 Jan 2021, 15:41

You will find details here : https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inscription_maritime

In short, a system dating from the 17th century. Intended to secure trained personnel for the royal navy. A counterpart was a retirement allowance, the very first such system in French history. Mandatory for professional maritime activities.

Typically, in the late 19th/early 20th a young man would enlist as an inscrit maritime at the age of eighteen, sail for some time and be drafted into the Navy (for four years). In wartime, being an inscrit maritime did not prevent being sent to land forces.

An example : born in 1879, class 1899, inscrit maritime in 1897
Drafted in december 1899, seaman 3rd class. Seaman 2nd class, gunner, in october 1902. Released in september 1903.
Called back to duty on the 1st of august 1914, sent to an artillery regiment, serving to the end of the war. Dead for France in 1919 from tuberculosis got in the Army. Neutral
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Jean Pendziwol
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MessageSujet: Crew Members Inkerman/Cerisoles - WW1 - Navy AND Somme?   Crew Members Inkerman/Cerisoles - WW1 - Navy AND Somme? EmptyLun 18 Jan 2021, 16:23

How interesting!

This could then be how some sailors ended up being involved in land battles (like the Somme)? But then, how did they return to maritime service... I'll continue digging.

Thank you.

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MessageSujet: Re: Crew Members Inkerman/Cerisoles - WW1 - Navy AND Somme?   Crew Members Inkerman/Cerisoles - WW1 - Navy AND Somme? EmptyLun 18 Jan 2021, 16:30

There must have been transfers back and forth.

As an example, Admiral Darlan served in the Navy as a junior officer, in land artillery during the war, then in the Rhine flotilla etc.

I have not found significant examples in the - genealogy - sources I have at hand, only :

Born in 1870, classe 1890. Inscrit maritime.
Made available for the military authority, incorporated in a "territorial" infantry regiment (enlisting the older recruits) in septembre 14. Soldier 2nd class. Sent back to the Inscription maritime in 1916 (he was then 46. Fishing for the community was also a useful duty).

I have read, for another person : Inscrit maritime made available for the War ministry (circulaire du 29 octobre 1914) Here : https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6211128p/f1086.image, from page 1031
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MessageSujet: Crew Members Inkerman/Cerisoles - WW1 - Navy AND Somme?   Crew Members Inkerman/Cerisoles - WW1 - Navy AND Somme? EmptyLun 18 Jan 2021, 17:14

Thank you so much!  Good information.

I have more images/links for the Inkerman and Cerisoles but seem to be having difficulty uploading them here.
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Jean Pendziwol
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MessageSujet: Crew Members Inkerman/Cerisoles - WW1 - Navy AND Somme?   Crew Members Inkerman/Cerisoles - WW1 - Navy AND Somme? EmptyJeu 21 Jan 2021, 15:28

Images of the construction of the minesweepers 1918 Canada Car Foundry, Fort William, Ontario Canada.
Crew Members Inkerman/Cerisoles - WW1 - Navy AND Somme? Minesw13
Crew Members Inkerman/Cerisoles - WW1 - Navy AND Somme? 84135510
Crew Members Inkerman/Cerisoles - WW1 - Navy AND Somme? 84135511
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Jean Pendziwol
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Crew Members Inkerman/Cerisoles - WW1 - Navy AND Somme? Empty
MessageSujet: Crew Members Inkerman/Cerisoles - WW1 - Navy AND Somme?   Crew Members Inkerman/Cerisoles - WW1 - Navy AND Somme? EmptyJeu 21 Jan 2021, 15:31

More images:

Crew Members Inkerman/Cerisoles - WW1 - Navy AND Somme? 84135610
Crew Members Inkerman/Cerisoles - WW1 - Navy AND Somme? 84146610
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NIALA
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MessageSujet: Re: Crew Members Inkerman/Cerisoles - WW1 - Navy AND Somme?   Crew Members Inkerman/Cerisoles - WW1 - Navy AND Somme? EmptyJeu 21 Jan 2021, 15:44

Merci pour ces photos,

Cerisoles et Inkermann appartenaient a une classe de 12 dragueurs de mines commandes en 1918 au meme chantier canadien par la France, ils constituaient la classe Navarin, après la perte des Cerisoles et Inkermann les dix autres ont été désarmés à Boston; cette classe manquait de stabilité; ces navires portaient les noms de Navarin, Mantoue, St Georges, Leoben, Palestro, Lutzen, Bautzen, Senef, Cerisoles, Sebastopol, Malakoff et Inkermann dans l'ordre leur construction.

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